Skyline or NSX

[Grez~Supra_RZ-S]

No matter how much you tune it, youre still going to have AWD sapping up most of your power. AWD is also for girls.

[3ni_2nr]

The peeps in WRC are not gonna like this O.o

[SuperString]

No matter how much you tune it, youre still going to have AWD sapping up most of your power. AWD is also for girls.

AWD on Skyline is a AWD/RWD system. And AWD is all terain-all weather system.

[boganbusman]

lol I'd like to see a Skyline drving over all terrain in bad weather

[TheNoobofFerraris]

Why can't I just have both, you know?

[SuperString]

lol I'd like to see a Skyline drving over all terrain in bad weather

Skyline is more of track car, but I guarantee you a Skyline would preform on dirt road much better than, say, Viper or Corvette.

[boganbusman]

You're not understanding what I said . . .

I'm implying that the AWD system was not designed for letting the car go off-road (as you stated).

[steelsnake00]

Which is correct Bogan
Hell, I don't think I'd ever buy a Skyline (or NSX for that matter) because there are cars I'd much rather have for that much money. E36 M3- Yes, less horsepower, but looks better, much more precice handling and getting the tail out is so, so so much fun. Plus excelent build quality, nicer interiors ect ect. Lotus Esprit V8- can pick one up for peanuts, so unreliable but has a damn good power-weight ratio, would probably beat a Skyline around a track and looks absolutely fapping gorgeous.

[Grez~Supra_RZ-S]

No matter how much you tune it, youre still going to have AWD sapping up most of your power. AWD is also for girls.

AWD on Skyline is a AWD/RWD system.

Hence why its called AWD, and not 4WD. The power transfer is largely RWD until the front end needs grip, when the FWD part of the box kicks in. However, it still has an AWD transfer case, and thats what saps up nearly 30% of the cars power before it reaches the floor.

much more precice handling

I agree that value for money, an E36 would be a wiser choice than an R34 GTR, but Im afraid the handling on the Skyline is almost second to none.

[SuperString]

You're not understanding what I said . . .

I'm implying that the AWD system was not designed for letting the car go off-road (as you stated).

Actually the first car that put AWD system in move was Audi Quattro and S1. The both were designed as rally cars. Remeber 87 and Pikes Peak. AWD S1 trashed record made by V8 RWD oneseaters. As for the first AWD car Jensen Intercepter, it wasn't a system like we know it now. So yes, AWD generaly was made as all-terain - all-weather drive system. But, as for Skyline, yes, it wasn't installed for off-road racing, but more for easier and safer driving in city eviroment (note the name Skyline), but it's AWD system is pretty sofisticated because it tends to shift some power from AW to RW at faster speeds.

[Grez~Supra_RZ-S]

it wasn't installed for off-road racing, but more for easier and safer driving in city eviroment (note the name Skyline), but it's AWD system is pretty sofisticated because it tends to shift some power from AW to RW at faster speeds.

...no it wasnt. The technological marvel of the GTR AWD system wasnt designed for city driving, largely evident by the fact its a manual and not an automatic. Also, AWD doesnt shift to RWD at faster speeds. An AWD system works by being RWD, then transferring to AWD when the front detects a loss of grip. I dont know about you, but Ive never experienced a loss of grip from the front when Ive been driving through my local city.

The GTR breed was a track car right from the off, and the complicated AWD system reflects this. The Skyline itself was a comfortable cruiser, much in the same way as a BMW 3 series is. The GTR is the Japanese M3 CSL, it wasnt designed for sharply dressed office workers, it was designed as a track car that the public could buy.

[SuperString]

it wasn't installed for off-road racing, but more for easier and safer driving in city eviroment (note the name Skyline), but it's AWD system is pretty sofisticated because it tends to shift some power from AW to RW at faster speeds.

...no it wasnt. The technological marvel of the GTR AWD system wasnt designed for city driving, largely evident by the fact its a manual and not an automatic. Also, AWD doesnt shift to RWD at faster speeds. An AWD system works by being RWD, then transferring to AWD when the front detects a loss of grip. I dont know about you, but Ive never experienced a loss of grip from the front when Ive been driving through my local city.

The GTR breed was a track car right from the off, and the complicated AWD system reflects this. The Skyline itself was a comfortable cruiser, much in the same way as a BMW 3 series is. The GTR is the Japanese M3 CSL, it wasnt designed for sharply dressed office workers, it was designed as a track car that the public could buy.

There are permanent AWD systems also. Although, nowadays the tend to transfer power to WD when it's necessery.
Yes, Skyline is developet as Race Car, BUT, AWD ISN'T there just to stabilise the vehicle, it's ALSO for easier driving. Have you ever driven a RWD (for example older Volvo or BMW) on a snowy surface??? Try it! Without electronic you better one hell of a driver.
Skyline was popular in Japan, but r34 was ment to break even deeper in car market (read to the public) and they decide to keep the famus r28dett engine but to make it more user friendly than r33. This was achived with AWD system + better handling. Sadly, the EU and US market weren't interessted much in Skyline.

[PSZeTa]

Yes, Skyline is developet as Race Car, BUT, AWD ISN'T there just to stabilise the vehicle, it's ALSO for easier driving. Have you ever driven a RWD (for example older Volvo or BMW) on a snowy surface??? Try it! Without electronic you better one hell of a driver.

It's not meant for easier driving. It's just an ''side effect'' you get on snow, because it's not even meant to go up there.

[Grez~Supra_RZ-S]

There are permanent AWD systems also. Although, nowadays the tend to transfer power to WD when it's necessery.

Permanent AWD systems are called 4WD systems. Petty technicality I know, but you should really know that before you start arguing about them. AWD isnt locked, as Ive said before, its RWD until the front end loses grip, then its AWD.

Yes, Skyline is developet as Race Car, BUT, AWD ISN'T there just to stabilise the vehicle, it's ALSO for easier driving. Have you ever driven a RWD (for example older Volvo or BMW) on a snowy surface??? Try it! Without electronic you better one hell of a driver.

I drove a 1987 Toyota MR2 all through our last winter, which was one of the coldest on record. Its electronics were as technologically advanced as the windows, and obviously as the name suggests, the car is an MR layout, whereby all the weight is at the back. The car was no more difficult to drive than my brothers WRX, and certainly no easier. The fact is, the Japanese dont get all that much snow, and they certainly dont get enough to justify making a car with snowy conditions in mind. The GTR AWD system was designed to maximise grip for speed purposes, not for safety on the way home from buying noodles.

Skyline was popular in Japan, but r34 was ment to break even deeper in car market (read to the public) and they decide to keep the famus r28dett engine but to make it more user friendly than r33. This was achived with AWD system + better handling. Sadly, the EU and US market weren't interessted much in Skyline.

The engine is actually the RB26DETT, hence it being a 2.6L TT engine. The R33 GTR, as well as the R32 GTR before it, were both AWD. This wasnt a revelation on the R34, it had been a feature on the car for the previous decade or so, and helped the Skyline secure many victories...on track. The R34 was no more user friendly than the R33, and again no more than the R32. In fact, the R32 GTR is renound as being the best handler of all the Skyline generations, largely due to its light-weight body.

The reason the Skyline wasnt a hit in the US is simple. The US doesnt like imports. Whether theyre cars from Japan, or toasters from Germany, the Americans have always been happier when the leading brand is...American. The Skyline was that damned good when it was released, and in all honesty, the US had nothing that could touch it in the same field. As a result, the emissions-tests on imported vehicles was tightened, and the RB26DETT failed, and so the GTR was banned. The Skyline was a hit in the EU however, particularly in the UK, where we boast the worlds third largest GTR owners club, behind Japan and Australia.

[boganbusman]

Very interesting read Grez

And, SuperString, just give up while you still have the chance.

[krazyammo]

well looks like the nsx won't match the skyline

[steelsnake00]

You're not understanding what I said . . .

I'm implying that the AWD system was not designed for letting the car go off-road (as you stated).

Actually the first car that put AWD system in move was Audi Quattro and S1.

Ironically enough, who thinks a LWB Quattro converted to SWB Sportquattro spec, with an S1 spec engine is a good idea as a project car?

@grez: Handling is a matter of oppinion, really. Besides the Audi, I've been brought up on rwd cars predominently, and I do find them easier to drive. Thats why I opted to throw mone at a 3.2 NA lightweight BMW rather than the R34GTR I tried out...

[Grez~Supra_RZ-S]

Well technically speaking, if we're talking bang for buck, then there are much better cars than the E36 too, and not all of them are RWD (EF Civic hatch with B18C anyone?). IMO, for the money you cant beat a 20V AW11. 160bhp out of the box, and in a chassis that weighs under a ton. The balance is just as good as a regular AW11, as the blocks are very similar, and there are very few cars that, in an equal situation, could keep up with one. Although I must state at this point, that while handling is a matter of opinion, the weakest link in the chain is always the driver.

I admit I prefer RWD too, which is why Im not currently driving an R32 GTR right now, although Ive been to look at a few. I prefer cars that dont think for me when I try to push the limits, which is why Ive had three SXs.

[SuperString]

There are permanent AWD systems also. Although, nowadays the tend to transfer power to WD when it's necessery.

Permanent AWD systems are called 4WD systems. Petty technicality I know, but you should really know that before you start arguing about them. AWD isnt locked, as Ive said before, its RWD until the front end loses grip, then its AWD.

Yes, Skyline is developet as Race Car, BUT, AWD ISN'T there just to stabilise the vehicle, it's ALSO for easier driving. Have you ever driven a RWD (for example older Volvo or BMW) on a snowy surface??? Try it! Without electronic you better one hell of a driver.

I drove a 1987 Toyota MR2 all through our last winter, which was one of the coldest on record. Its electronics were as technologically advanced as the windows, and obviously as the name suggests, the car is an MR layout, whereby all the weight is at the back. The car was no more difficult to drive than my brothers WRX, and certainly no easier. The fact is, the Japanese dont get all that much snow, and they certainly dont get enough to justify making a car with snowy conditions in mind. The GTR AWD system was designed to maximise grip for speed purposes, not for safety on the way home from buying noodles.

Skyline was popular in Japan, but r34 was ment to break even deeper in car market (read to the public) and they decide to keep the famus r28dett engine but to make it more user friendly than r33. This was achived with AWD system + better handling. Sadly, the EU and US market weren't interessted much in Skyline.

The engine is actually the RB26DETT, hence it being a 2.6L TT engine. The R33 GTR, as well as the R32 GTR before it, were both AWD. This wasnt a revelation on the R34, it had been a feature on the car for the previous decade or so, and helped the Skyline secure many victories...on track. The R34 was no more user friendly than the R33, and again no more than the R32. In fact, the R32 GTR is renound as being the best handler of all the Skyline generations, largely due to its light-weight body.

The reason the Skyline wasnt a hit in the US is simple. The US doesnt like imports. Whether theyre cars from Japan, or toasters from Germany, the Americans have always been happier when the leading brand is...American. The Skyline was that damned good when it was released, and in all honesty, the US had nothing that could touch it in the same field. As a result, the emissions-tests on imported vehicles was tightened, and the RB26DETT failed, and so the GTR was banned. The Skyline was a hit in the EU however, particularly in the UK, where we boast the worlds third largest GTR owners club, behind Japan and Australia.

As for the r33 and r32 there where beside AWD, RWD only systems also. I wasn't refering that AWD system in Skyline case was only for user friendly case, but was one of the reasons. The real reason of Skyline not breaking in EU market (DO NOT mix up EU market with UK!!!!) is not just because emissions. Do you truly think a rb26dett engines can't be modded to produce less emitions??? The same thing was with Supra, Eclipse and Integra. The market wasn't interested in Japanesse cars. Yes they where cheap, but very few people bought better sport versions, since EU cars in 80 and 90 where far more superior. Don't forget that masses are the one who decide what comes on market and what not. Would you ask somebody in EU in early 90 what do he/she thinks of nissan/mitsubishi/subaru being sport car producer, you could hear reactions. One more historical fact, japs entered rally sport in 80s, but breakthrough, first in mid 90. As for Le Mans, if I recall correctly, there is none victory for a Jap. car. Japanesse sport cars break in EU market in late 90, but untill now, there WASN'T segnificant number in sales. RX8 and 350Z changed that. This is why it took 10 years for Viper to come to EU. Emissions can be changed, but buyers phychology (i hate that word) not. The same reason is with US. Just one more thing, I spoke to Mitsubishi manager at auto-ahow last winter and asked him why isn't the new Eclipse coming to EU. The reason is that there are to few interested buyer to make engine conversion to lower emissions.
Now, as for AWD/4WD being user friendly in snow condicitons. I was refering to AVERAGE driver. Maybe you can dirve good with RWD, but saying that RWD without electronics drives equaly in snow as 4W/AW??? No my firend, my personal family firend needs to put heavy cargo in his boot on his old volvo to drive in snow. It's pure physics. Driving a RW on snow is not as easy as FW, AW. Ask ANY professional rally driver.
I'm not trying to arguee with you, but to made some points clear. PEACE

[SuperString]

Very interesting read Grez

And, SuperString, just give up while you still have the chance.

Just because I'm new to forums doesn't mean I know jack about cars

[steelsnake00]

It depends entirely HOW you drive. You can drive faster in adverse weather conditions, or on poor condition roads, with 4WD, but it doesn't mean its any easier. I've owned a string of fairly high horsepower RWD and AWD cars over the last 4 years or so, along with a couple of high-power FWD's (A pair of Corrado VR6's, a 8v GTI and a stripped out 1.6 16v engined Polo Mk4) and safe to say besides the Polo, yes, on the whole the AWD and FWD cars are easier to drive in snow, but on tracks, fields and oth surfaces then the RWD's are easier to drive, particularly gravel. The reason AWD was introduced into rally was not because it made it easier to drive in adverse conditions, but because it made it faster to do so.

@Superstring. The skyline didn't break into the EU market because it was an import, and importing costs an absolute fortune. The Skyline GTR was a JDM car, Domestic marketed, and as such when bought new it was enormously expensive in the EU and US, because of import taxes, shipping fees, ect ect. ALSO I believe that Mazda won Le Mans once, but I don't know what year.

[SuperString]

[/quote]
Ironically enough, who thinks a LWB Quattro converted to SWB Sportquattro spec, with an S1 spec engine is a good idea as a project car?
[/quote]

Just to say a word that David Sutton for Audi team UK said:
"When we where asked what we're driving everybody laugh, and after a first race nobody was laughing anymore..."
Want more proof, find 87 video of Pikes Peak and see how full chassis audi spanks pikes peak special v8 oneseaters. So much for american muscle...
And RS4 is the best handling car in its class. If you don't believe me, try it.

[SuperString]

It depends entirely HOW you drive. You can drive faster in adverse weather conditions, or on poor condition roads, with 4WD, but it doesn't mean its any easier. I've owned a string of fairly high horsepower RWD and AWD cars over the last 4 years or so, along with a couple of high-power FWD's (A pair of Corrado VR6's, a 8v GTI and a stripped out 1.6 16v engined Polo Mk4) and safe to say besides the Polo, yes, on the whole the AWD and FWD cars are easier to drive in snow, but on tracks, fields and oth surfaces then the RWD's are easier to drive, particularly gravel. The reason AWD was introduced into rally was not because it made it easier to drive in adverse conditions, but because it made it faster to do so.

@Superstring. The skyline didn't break into the EU market because it was an import, and importing costs an absolute fortune. The Skyline GTR was a JDM car, Domestic marketed, and as such when bought new it was enormously expensive in the EU and US, because of import taxes, shipping fees, ect ect. ALSO I believe that Mazda won Le Mans once, but I don't know what year.

Didn't you get it? I said average driver, not a racer or race track, and YES, awd was there for easier driving, which made car go faster because the boot wasn't dacing anymore. (Watch the documentary: "The worlds greates rally cars" and listen what highly experienced drivers say if you think I BS). Yes you're right, now I recall 91. was Mazda 787B, but read my post again. If a buyer would be interessted in Jap cars in 90s, they would get it. The taxes are even higher today and we still import some cars. You have to read between the lines. The only problem was the people who could afford Skyline supra would buy themselfs Porsche/BMW than Nissan/Toyota. Don't forget, it was 90s.

[steelsnake00]

But still, imports are much, much rarer than main dealer distributed vehicles. The point I was making was that the reason Japanese cars aren't (as) common in the EU is because of cheap trade agreements between the EU contries themselves, which keep companie like VAG, Fiat, Citroen and Peugot building cheap, realiable cars for out market. If you go to Japan, besides seeing the occasional "exotic", it's very uncommon to see Western cars.
Old RS4 or new one? I liked the new one almost enough to buy one, but not because of the handling. Again, I thought like most of the UrQ cars, it's a little nose heavy for my liking. I thought the CSL was sharper around the bends, gave a better road feeling and was more predictable on the limit than the Audi was.

[SuperString]

But still, imports are much, much rarer than main dealer distributed vehicles. The point I was making was that the reason Japanese cars aren't (as) common in the EU is because of cheap trade agreements between the EU contries themselves, which keep companie like VAG, Fiat, Citroen and Peugot building cheap, realiable cars for out market. If you go to Japan, besides seeing the occasional "exotic", it's very uncommon to see Western cars.
Old RS4 or new one? I liked the new one almost enough to buy one, but not because of the handling. Again, I thought like most of the UrQ cars, it's a little nose heavy for my liking. I thought the CSL was sharper around the bends, gave a better road feeling and was more predictable on the limit than the Audi was.

Yes, exactly what I ment! In Jap people drive Jap cars, In US US brand, because, just like you said, people aren't interested in driving imports of same class when they can get same preformance without extra paying + people are sceptical when it comes to buy a ride (at least in austria).
The last 2 gen. of RS4 are realy incredible. Grip is just astonishing. On my "must buy sedan/caravan" list it stands in first 3 places.