V8 power from a V6 [Ford's TwinForce TT-V6]

xHaZxMaTx · Post by **xHaZxMaTx** » 17 Jan 2007, 17:41

Yeah, I don't know why I posted that, now that I look at it.

darknight788 · Post by **darknight788** » 17 Jan 2007, 20:00

boganbusman wrote:Using ZF as an example, their top auto trans has 12 forward speeds and can handle 2700Nm. Their top manual trans has 16 forward speeds and can also take 2700Nm.

yea that top auto tranny should handle power up to 1991 lb ft of torque but alot of owner/operators want more. they usually order engines with atleast 600 hp and 2000 ft lbs of torque going all the way up to 2250 ft lbs of torque. im saying there isnt anybody out there that makes a auto that can handle that much, also the guys who drive them like to shift

boganbusman · Post by **boganbusman** » 18 Jan 2007, 02:28

darknight788 wrote:also the guys who drive them like to shift

I don't know how you worked that out. The majority of all car owners prefers autos, so why would truck drivers be any different? If I was a truckie, I certainly would not want to slam through 16 gears every time I need to stop/start.

steelsnake00 · Post by **steelsnake00** » 18 Jan 2007, 02:48

Ugh. That's so untrue. Almost everyone who drives a car for enjoyment, and most of those who don't, prefer manual boxes. Auto's are lazy and power-sapping.

boganbusman · Post by **boganbusman** » 18 Jan 2007, 02:59

Uhh . . . ok well I don't know about Europe, but almost everyone in America and Aus drives an auto. Most of the people I know don't even know how to drive a manual.

Grez~Supra_RZ-S · Post by **Grez~Supra_RZ-S** » 18 Jan 2007, 03:30

True enough most Europeans in my experience prefer a manual over an auto, depending on what the vehicle is/what its used for. My friends dad was a trucker, and he hated manuals, as does my dad who is an accounts manager (but does a lot of city driving as part of his job).

Cpt.Razkit · Post by **Cpt.Razkit** » 18 Jan 2007, 05:55

Automatic is def better in the cities IMO, Manual is fun out in the countryside or driving for fun, not on busy, stuck in traffic moments.

darknight788 · Post by **darknight788** » 18 Jan 2007, 06:39

i work around 10,13,15,18 speed trucks all day. that is my job (diesel technician) and i can tell you that 90 percent of truck drivers prefer a manual transmission. my favorites are the 15 speeds they seem to be the most fun to drive out of the bunch. and yea in traffic that is just creeping along manuals kinda suck either you keep a good distance between you and the car ahead of you or you use the clutch alot

Post by **TheStig** » 18 Jan 2007, 08:33

boganbusman wrote: I certainly would not want to slam through 16 gears every time I need to stop/start.

Bogan, when you drive a big truck, you don't use all gears and harly ever start in 1st gear, you often skip alot of gears when driving.

Most trucks in europe these days also have a auto or semi auto box, but when it comes to normal cars.
like 99% of the people in europe drive a manual. most people don't even want a auto box cause it is considered to be for lazy people.

There are alot of cars sold here that don't even have a auto option, and if they do you pay like 2000 E extra for it.

I personally hate automatic transmissions, they react slow and most often don't shift when you want to. at certain speeds they are eighter to high in gear or to low (most of the time the engines is revving to high, wich gives even a worse fuel economy.
The later semi automatics are slightly better cause you can often manually get it into a higher or lower gear so it drives better.
I driving a automatic with a + and - option and it was alot better cause I could get it to shift up when I wanted to or keep it in a certain gear.
But then I always had it on semi so I could shift myself all the time.

boganbusman · Post by **boganbusman** » 18 Jan 2007, 09:08

TheStig wrote:like 99% of the people in europe drive a manual.

Well that's news to me.

btw, autos are getting pretty good now and they don't have slow/rough changes or hold the wrong gear. In fact they're getting so good that manuals are becoming extinct (in my part of the world anyway). I'm quite suprised that so many people in Europe still drive manuals, but then, your cars/roads/lifestyle are very diffent to ours.

SuperString · Post by **SuperString** » 18 Jan 2007, 16:22

boganbusman wrote:
TheStig wrote:like 99% of the people in europe drive a manual.
Well that's news to me.

btw, autos are getting pretty good now and they don't have slow/rough changes or hold the wrong gear. In fact they're getting so good that manuals are becoming extinct (in my part of the world anyway). I'm quite suprised that so many people in Europe still drive manuals, but then, your cars/roads/lifestyle are very diffent to ours.

Why are you suprised? Manual delivers better driving preformance and gas results than equivalent automatic.

Grez~Supra_RZ-S · Post by **Grez~Supra_RZ-S** » 18 Jan 2007, 18:15

Not in all cases for all applications it doesnt.

SuperString · Post by **SuperString** » 18 Jan 2007, 22:21

Grez~Supra_RZ-S wrote:Not in all cases for all applications it doesnt.

For those that for ordinary driving relevant are, manual is better.

Grez~Supra_RZ-S · Post by **Grez~Supra_RZ-S** » 18 Jan 2007, 23:10

Define ''normal driving''. Driving round a city/town? Automatics are easier, more efficient and generally less hassle than their manual equivalents. Straight line performance? The Supras Gehtrag auto box is actually quicker from second gear up than is humanly possible, hence why a guy I know has run an 11.9 on stock turbos.

The ONLY application where a manual is better is track racing, and thats purely down to predictability, and engine-braking.

Post by **TheStig** » 19 Jan 2007, 08:46

I prefer a manual, not because it's easier cause it is not but because I basicly don't know any better, and I like to "work' abit in the car and best of all it's alot more fun, especially when practicing double clutch shifting and heel toe shifting. wich isn't very easy but very much fun to learn when driving on your own.

I think when you learn to drive with a manual and almost always use it you don't even think about it so it isn't much of a hassle, or alteast it doesn't feel like it.
I'm basicly my own automatic gearbox, I don't look at the speed or revs to shift just the "feel"

That's why I still don't know how some people in home made street racing movies manage to miss a shift, I see plenty of drag race movies where they miss a shift and loose.. and I think like, HOW?? how do you miss second or 3rd gear?

SuperString · Post by **SuperString** » 19 Jan 2007, 13:25

Grez~Supra_RZ-S wrote:Define ''normal driving''. Driving round a city/town? Automatics are easier, more efficient and generally less hassle than their manual equivalents. Straight line performance? The Supras Gehtrag auto box is actually quicker from second gear up than is humanly possible, hence why a guy I know has run an 11.9 on stock turbos.

The ONLY application where a manual is better is track racing, and thats purely down to predictability, and engine-braking.

Accualy there are more disadvantages with automatic than with manual. Less efficient acceleration, lower top speed, HIGHER gas consumption (very important), delayed responce in taking over (an experienced driver is gonna give a great minus because of that), higher price plus much easier to break, and like the Stig said, it totaly ruins the fun of driving for those who learned how to drive with manual. The only advantage that I see in automatic is when you have to shift alot like big city driving.
In the end, most cars sold here are manual. And that says alot.

boganbusman · Post by **boganbusman** » 19 Jan 2007, 14:16

SuperString wrote:Accualy there are more disadvantages with automatic than with manual. Less efficient acceleration, lower top speed, HIGHER gas consumption (very important), delayed responce in taking over (an experienced driver is gonna give a great minus because of that), higher price plus much easier to break, and like the Stig said, it totaly ruins the fun of driving for those who learned how to drive with manual. The only advantage that I see in automatic is when you have to shift alot like big city driving.
In the end, most cars sold here are manual. And that says alot.

- Acceleration is not really less efficient. The torque converter multiplies the torque of the engine to allow for smooth and effortless movement. Some new cars actually have better acceleration times in auto guise.

- Lack of top speed is marginal. An auto only loses out because it has more surface area contact between the gears and therefore more friction. Consequently, this also makes it tougher than a manual.

- With modern technology, fuel consumption is also not far behind manuals these days. This also applies to the kick-down function. Also, for someone who enjoys driving, you are going to use a lot of pretol anyway.

- They are not easier to break, as I said before.

- Where you live is not the whole world. Most of the cars on the planet are automatics.

Don't get me wrong though, I still prefer manuals, and I own one myself, but you need to educate yourself before you start lecturing others

SuperString · Post by **SuperString** » 19 Jan 2007, 14:44

boganbusman wrote:
SuperString wrote:Accualy there are more disadvantages with automatic than with manual. Less efficient acceleration, lower top speed, HIGHER gas consumption (very important), delayed responce in taking over (an experienced driver is gonna give a great minus because of that), higher price plus much easier to break, and like the Stig said, it totaly ruins the fun of driving for those who learned how to drive with manual. The only advantage that I see in automatic is when you have to shift alot like big city driving.
In the end, most cars sold here are manual. And that says alot.
- Acceleration is not really less effiecient. The torque converter multiplies the torque of the engine to allow for smooth and effortless movement. Some new cars actually have better acceleration times in auto guise.

- Lack of top speed is marginal. An auto only loses out because it has more surface area contact between the gears and therefore more friction. Consequently, this also makes it tougher than a manual.

- With modern technology, fuel consumption is also not far behind manuals these days. This also applies to the kick-down function. Also, for someone who enjoys driving, you are going to use a lot of pretol anyway.

- They are not easier to break, as I said before.

- Where you live is not the whole world. Most of the cars on the planet are automatics.

Don't get me wrong, I still prefer manuals, and I own one myself, but you need to educate yourself before you start lecturing others

Give me at least 5 examples where automatic is better, and I'll take all back.
Second thing, kid, I live in capital city of Austria, and more than 70% of cars are manual, as in Germany, as in France, as in Sweden, as in Italy, and Spain.
I've seen more countries than you did, and I drive surely longer than you are. I'm not lecturing anybody, I just say what a lot of really experienced drivers said (including Pro Rally and track drivers)
So kid, stop reading wikipedia and some tuning sites. Theory is far form practical.
If you think otherwise, ask someone who really has a drivig experience, like Stig.

boganbusman · Post by **boganbusman** » 19 Jan 2007, 14:52

I beg your pardon?

For starters, stop calling me "kid". I'm an adult and I expect to be treated that way, especially when I give others the same respect. Secondly, I'm a mechanic, and I don't just copy text from "Wikipedia and tuning sites".

Everything I said in my last post is absolutely true and practical. If you can prove me wrong then I'll be more than happy to learn form you, but all you did was insult me. I'm rather offended.

SuperString · Post by **SuperString** » 19 Jan 2007, 15:31

You can compare Mercedes models:
http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content ... rices.html

BMW doesn't even have automatic transmission for SERIAL production (automatic is extra feature) and specs listed, which says alot:
http://www.bmw.de/de/produkte/automobil ... index.html

This is one of the greatest car manufactorers and one of best machines:
http://www.volvocars.co.uk/models/s60/techSpec.htm

And the Audi and their famous mulitronic:
http://www.audi.co.uk/etc/medialib/cms4 ... 4.File.pdf

Now find me a figure of automatic that is better than manual, and I'll take all back. These are the most advanced car manufacturers in the world.
In the real world, you can feel the difference even more.
I'm not gonna argue about something I don't know, but this is generally known.

Sorry if I insult you, and that I reacted that way, was stupid. So my apologies to you and any other valued member on this site that are being offended by my posts.

boganbusman · Post by **boganbusman** » 19 Jan 2007, 15:54

OK, where do I start . . .

- Why don't you compare the Mercedes models for me? I don't have the time, and the link you gave me isn't even in English.

- BMW does have automatic transmissions. They also have the SMG, which is an automised manual gearbox.

- I'm not even going to bother with Volvos.

- The Audi Multitronic is actually an automatic transmission (or Continuosly Variable Transmission, to be precise).

Do I even need to continue? Well I will anyway, and here is an obvious example of where an auto is better than a manual:

DRAG RACING

also, in Australia we have a car called the Ford Falcon. The automatic version is faster, because it has a high-tech ZF transmission. It also achieves good fuel economy. Even the old 4-speed on the previous Falcon was faster than the manual. The manual version is only better on a racetrack, and even then the difference is marginal. This isn't a great example, but it's an example none the less.

However, I don't want you to think that I like auto transmissions. I don't like them at all, but I'm telling you the facts, because you seem to have no idea.

SuperString · Post by **SuperString** » 19 Jan 2007, 16:16

boganbusman wrote:OK, where do I start . . .

- Why don't you compare the Mercedes models for me? I don't have the time, and the link you gave me isn't even in English.

- BMW does have automatic transmissions. They also have the SMG, which is an automised manual gearbox.

- I'm not even going to bother with Volvos.

- The Audi Multitronic is also an automatic transmission (or Continuosly Variable Transmission, to be precise).

You didn't say anythig that would disprove my posts. Only BMWs Site was on german, becuse on english they don't have that info. BMW and Audi have automatic, never said they didn't but, as for BMW, read, they don't even have specs on auto transsmision, and Audis Multitronic (I know what they are) is worse than manual (as being one of the most advanced automatic transmission), I gave you link to comapre them, just read.

boganbusman wrote: Do I even need to continue? Well I will anyway, and here is an obvious example of where an auto is better than a manual:

DRAG RACING

also, in Australia we have a car called the Ford Falcon. The automatic version is faster, because it has a high-tech ZF transmission. It also achieves good fuel economy. Even the old 4-speed on the previous Falcon was faster than the auto. The manual version is only better on a racetrack, and even then the difference is marginal. This isn't a great example, but it's an example none the less.

However, I don't want you to think that I like auto transmissions. I don't like them at all, but I'm telling you the facts, because you seem to have no idea.

I know not much about drag racing, since I don't like it, It's more "who has the largest penis" than real test of driving skills, and I haven't had the oppertunity to be on so many, so I'll let you to judge. Just keep in mind, a lot of street and drag race videos of cars on internet have manuals. If the automatics were so better, than most of cars would be automatic.
There is no doubt that automatics will be improved in the future, and it's possible that with new type of engines a new type of transmission might occur, but till then, for most part of drivers, manual is better choice.

And I won't post anymore since this is your home anyway and my arguments are irrelevant.

boganbusman · Post by **boganbusman** » 20 Jan 2007, 01:19

SuperString wrote:BMW doesn't even have automatic transmission

And the Audi and their famous mulitronic

By reading this, you're giving me the impression that BMWs have no autos and that you were in favour of the Multitronic. You're not helping your argument, you're just confusing me.

And besides that, if BMW is missing info on their website, it doesn't prove anything! You ask of me to disprove what you are saying, BUT YOU HAVEN'T PROVED ANYTHING TO ME.

Just keep in mind, a lot of street and drag race videos of cars on internet have manuals.

Ha! And YOU were accusing me of hanging around on "tuning sites". I'm talking about proper drag racing that happens on proper drag strips. Street racing is illegal, so not many people do it. You are talking about a minority, and that in no way represents the majority of car users.

It's more "who has the largest penis" than real test of driving skills

Actually, it's a test of engineering skills, but you wouldn't know that would you.

If the automatics were so better, than most of cars would be automatic.

THEY ARE. AS I SAID BEFORE, where you live (Europe), does not make up the whole world. Most cars on the planet are autos.

And I won't post anymore since this is your home anyway and my arguments are irrelevant.

Your arguments are not irrelevant, just ignorant. Don't run away, I'm quite happy to continue this discussion if you are willing to pay attention.

SuperString · Post by **SuperString** » 20 Jan 2007, 02:53

Ok then,

As for BMW, read till end. I said, if you look carefully BMW hasn't got automatic listed under serial production, it's an option. German - ZusatzbehÃ¶r
Under famous multitronic, was refering to famous audis automatic since multitronic is one of the best and even it is worse than manual equivalent.
I already said that I don't know if automatic is better in drag racing, because I have no interests in it + in Austria, Germany aren't so many drag strips since most of people prefer track or rally. There comes my argument about videos, I was refering to them in term of automatic trannys. Under street racing I was refering drag racing also. And yes, you'll see that many single digit cars run on manual (street able car aswel), now if i lie, than the people that build the cars lied also.

Drag racing is maybe a skill of engineering, but certanly not skill of driver, and if somebody tells me that drag is better proof than track, he/she can dig him/herself a grave and shoot in head. Only thing that can proove is how good you can shift. Driving for car enthusiasts is fun and should last longer than 10 or less seconds. Back to engineering, if you wanna impress me with your skills (not just refering to you but to all car engineers), build an engine form ground up in a new way, new tech, something like hydrogen engine built by Mazda or BMW, or electronic like Tesla. Anybody can slap some turbos, change management unit or build up engine, all you need is platform, money and nerves. Some will say it feels good to beat a Zonda with Mustang, Camaro or Golf, but in the end they are the suckers since Zonda driver is able to buy them + their car, he lives in better home and can have 90% of babes in town.

What else? That "there would be more automatic", have we discused, I wasn't refering to all the cars in the world, but the cars on the tuning scene. Imo, I really don't know why the engineers invented automatic anyway, it's more for folks in big town who drive alot with need of constant gear change and don't mind the fuel economy.

And to tell you a couple of stories from a real life if they can count. A father of my best friend had an accident and his Achilles tendon (that is the one on the posterior side of ankle) on left leg. (That kind of injuries are bad, hurt alot, and it takes time to heal, in most cases you won't be able to gain full recovery. Soccer players can tell you more, as they are scared of the injury.) Ok, so father sees that he has to buy an automatic since he can't operate with clutch. He bought BMW 3 series. In next 2 years the gear broke down couple of times, he was lucky to have warranty. Last year he took the new 3 series manual after little more than 3 years of automatic, and said he'll never take auto again. He wasn't only that said that. Even my uncle had traffic accident cause of automatic, and he was automatic fan.

Maybe there are automatics that preforme better, but majority doesn't, and if you are mechanic, you know it.

boganbusman · Post by **boganbusman** » 20 Jan 2007, 05:03

You are still being ridiculous. This is like talking to a brick wall . . .

As for BMW, read till end. I said, if you look carefully BMW hasn't got automatic listed under serial production, it's an option.

SO WHAT? It's an option because it costs more. Almost every car is like that when you buy one.

Under famous multitronic, was refering to famous audis automatic since multitronic is one of the best and even it is worse than manual equivalent.

Why is it worse? I not saying that I don't agree with you, but you're not telling me WHY. You can't just say that something is worse, you have to explain the reasons.

I already said that I don't know if automatic is better in drag racing, because I have no interests in it . . . . . Under street racing I was refering drag racing also. And yes, you'll see that many single digit cars run on manual (street able car aswel), now if i lie, than the people that build the cars lied also.

You are just blabbering here, not making any sense to me at all. You have no interest in drag racing, and clearly know nothing about it.

Drag racing is maybe a skill of engineering, but certanly not skill of driver

There is actually some driver skill involved, but that is not what we're talking about.

and if somebody tells me that drag is better proof than track, he/she can dig him/herself a grave and shoot in head.

It's not "better" proof, but it's still entirely relevant. If we are going to use racing in our discussion, then all forms of racing must be considered, whether you like it or not.

Back to engineering, if you wanna impress me with your skills (not just refering to you but to all car engineers), build an engine form ground up in a new way, new tech, something like hydrogen engine built by Mazda or BMW, or electronic like Tesla. Anybody can slap some turbos, change management unit or build up engine, all you need is platform, money and nerves. Some will say it feels good to beat a Zonda with Mustang, Camaro or Golf, but in the end they are the suckers since Zonda driver is able to buy them + their car, he lives in better home and can have 90% of babes in town.

So you are not impressed by engineering skills? Are you telling me that you have more respect for wealthy morons than you do for skilled craftsmen? All I see here is another ignorant comment.

What else? That "there would be more automatic", have we discused, I wasn't refering to all the cars in the world, but the cars on the tuning scene.

When did this happen? I thought we were talking about all cars, in all countries? You're confusing me again.

Imo, I really don't know why the engineers invented automatic anyway

Another ignorant comment.

Even my uncle had traffic accident cause of automatic

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Also, your 'story' is just a one-off case, and doesn't prove anything.

I hope you're paying attention now.