Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by boganbusman »

Sorry Tex but I'm going to fill your thread with an argument.

Now I'm no suspension engineer, but you don't need to treat me like an idiot. Ok I as wrong about one thing: they are not made in China, but in Taiwan. BC stands for Bor Chuann, and apart from Apex they also supply Megan, Skunk2, and the cheaper model Buddy Clubs. I hope you didn't think it was actually a UK company.

Chinese/Taiwanese coilovers are copies of the other expensive brands, but they cut corners in all aspects of the production to keep the cost down. R&D is virtually nil. How do I know this? Because I've chatted with suspension techs who have dismantled and inspected these cheap coilovers.

Common problems:
- adjuster knobs that either do nothing, or make horrendous changes in damping curves
- poor corrosion resistance
- internal aluminium parts are very soft and easy to damage
- very high and inconsistent internal strut friction, which is mainly caused by flexing/distortion of the strut tube
- poor damping characteristics, typically with massive rebound forces
- no servicing available (did you actually find someone to service BC coilovers or are you just saying that?)

If you want to do some reading then check this out: http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
There are plenty of other sites that will give you a similar impression of cheap coilovers/dampers. Or are you saying that a bunch of random Silvia drivers knows better than a suspension engineer?
On a forum you will always find an equal amount of positive and negative reviews. Only a few select people (usually the old guys who have been racing for 50 years) really know what they are talking about. Or people who actually work with suspension and have a lot of experience.

I don't know if there are many Silvia enthusiasts who fall into those categories, but if there are you should hunt them down. On the MR2 forums there are plenty of these older/experinced guys, and they will all tell you a similar thing. (BC coilovers are also available for MR2s just incase you were wondering)

Anyway, I can guarantee you 100% that Ground Control coil sleeves with good shock absorbers like Koni yellow will outperform your BC coilovers, and without much price difference (if any). If you still think I'm wrong then that's fine, I'll shut my mouth and you can do whatever you want.

I just want you to not be so naive, and research a bit rather than listening to some dude who takes his Silvia to the track. The more you can learn, the more you will enjoy your car!
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by Texhnolith »

Sure, if you take an engineerings point of view they arnt up to their much too high standards i guess.
As a graphics designer i would booboo at 1 pixel that is off too, will users notice it... no.

And im not treating you like an idiot. or if it sound that way it was not intended. (must say i get the same vibe from you bashing the products and saying im doing something stupid without reasearch or so.)

As i said, many people who have experiance with these Apex coils are all very positive about them. so who decides that they are they crap. They are perfect for what they will be used for and a bit more. All these common problems you describe. i bet the same stuff happens too the expensive brands too. I read just as much problems with expensive brands as with cheap brands (any products, be it coils, manifolds, rims, tires, airfilters or anything)

Sure if your a pro you wont go for apex. but heck, im not. i just want a sweet daily ride with very good handeling, will Apex coils provide that.. most definatly yes. Would a billstein or such coil make me able to go through a corner 0.1s faster. probably will. But will i notice. No i just simply wont.

I rather listen too people with experiance in the same way i will use the coils then some engineer who will go for that 0.1s better time on a track.

Yes i know these aint a uk brand coils. I know that very well. Im in direct contact with the owner of Apex Performance. He himself is highly active in racing his cars. and guess what coils he is using ;) He aint a simple reseller of stuff, he is making his own products aswell.

Saying these coils are crap is just shiznit. These surely arnt the top of the line, never said they are, never will.
But with the performance these will give i'd be stupid to get something. If they would truely be crap. not 100's of people would use em and if they were crap, i would have read it somewhere for sure.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by topsy kret1 »

Apex is a good choice given the situation. obviously you'd get Bilstein if you were racing or doing something more performance needy. track-times aren't that big a deal if you just want to get from point A to point B while enjoying the ride in a car that you rebuilt yourself. the feeling is.....undescirbable.
boganbusman wrote: Common problems:
- adjuster knobs that either do nothing, or make horrendous changes in damping curves
- poor corrosion resistance
- internal aluminium parts are very soft and easy to damage
- very high and inconsistent internal strut friction, which is mainly caused by flexing/distortion of the strut tube
- poor damping characteristics, typically with massive rebound forces
- no servicing available (did you actually find someone to service BC coilovers or are you just saying that?)

If you want to do some reading then check this out: http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
There are plenty of other sites that will give you a similar impression of cheap coilovers/dampers. Or are you saying that a bunch of random Silvia drivers knows better than a suspension engineer?
On a forum you will always find an equal amount of positive and negative reviews. Only a few select people (usually the old guys who have been racing for 50 years) really know what they are talking about. Or people who actually work with suspension and have a lot of experience.

I don't know if there are many Silvia enthusiasts who fall into those categories, but if there are you should hunt them down. On the MR2 forums there are plenty of these older/experinced guys, and they will all tell you a similar thing. (BC coilovers are also available for MR2s just incase you were wondering)

Anyway, I can guarantee you 100% that Ground Control coil sleeves with good shock absorbers like Koni yellow will outperform your BC coilovers, and without much price difference (if any). If you still think I'm wrong then that's fine, I'll shut my mouth and you can do whatever you want.

I just want you to not be so naive, and research a bit rather than listening to some dude who takes his Silvia to the track. The more you can learn, the more you will enjoy your car!
in this case, its about enjoying the ride. not getting the best brand for the best track-time. just let him be. he would've gotten a better brand if he needed it. 8)
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by boganbusman »

Texhnolith wrote:(must say i get the same vibe from you bashing the products and saying im doing something stupid without reasearch or so.)
Without research? What do you think I posted all that info for? I've been researching suspension for the past year.
Texhnolith wrote:As i said, many people who have experiance with these Apex coils are all very positive about them. so who decides that they are they crap.
When you say "experience," how many of those people have pulled them apart and compared it with expensive coilovers? How many people have put them on a shock dyno to graph the damping curves? How many of these people win races?

Texhnolith wrote:All these common problems you describe. i bet the same stuff happens too the expensive brands too.
No, they don't. That is why I mentioned it.
Texhnolith wrote:Sure if your a pro you wont go for apex. but heck, im not. i just want a sweet daily ride with very good handeling, will Apex coils provide that.. most definatly yes. Would a billstein or such coil make me able to go through a corner 0.1s faster. probably will. But will i notice. No i just simply wont.
I'll just let you know that it's much more than a 0.1sec difference that I'm talking about here. Dampers are the single most important part of the suspension, maybe even the most important part on the whole car, and good dampers can turn an average car into a race winner.
Good dampers will teach you how to drive the car fast, instead of trying to make the car go fast when it's not.
You will DEFINITELY notice the difference.

I'm not saying they're crap just because I'm a hater or something. Actually I really wish they were good, then I could buy some for my car too! But they're not good, and that is a fact (which I have already proven).
Like I said, if you just want to go low and slow then cheap coilovers are fine, but don't be fooled into thinking that it will make your car "handle." Seriously read that link I posted last time.
Texhnolith wrote:If they would truely be crap. not 100's of people would use em and if they were crap, i would have read it somewhere for sure.
lol, so you're sayin that it's good because lots of people are using them? A lot of people buy Hyundais and say they are good cars, so does that mean they are good? No they are not, and a good mechanic can tell you why they're not good through experience and expertise.
This is no different.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by steelsnake00 »

For everyday useage, cheap coilovers are fine, and most drivers can't tell the difference. However, I for one believe that unlike in certain other areas in car modification (aftermarket bodywork, for example), you really do pay for a higher quality. I've always been one to vouch for the quality of KW and Bilsen suspention parts; now, a set of KW V3's (fully adjustable road/track coilovers) weigh in at £1140 for the S14 200SX, and KW Clubsports including top mounts are £1840, neither of which are cheap, but the quality of their gear is something else entirely. I've used KW coilovers on every single modified vehicle I've owned, from a 115bhp stripped out '98 Polo 1.4 16v to a 415bhp Audi S2 Quattro, and I don't think I will ever stray away from them, such is their quality.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by Texhnolith »

I ment to say you act like if I havent dont research.


And yes, im sertain my car will handle much better with these coils then with the stock suspension. im not building a frigging race car. im building an enjoyable road car.

And yes, these coils are used by people who win races in their classes. drift/track.

You continue to fail understanding what i keep saying. Again you say "turn an average car into a race winner" and again i will say. its a damned daily driver.

And yes, even expensive brands have leaking coils and such other problems. I read it by people who own them and have the problems.

And yes they are good coils for my purpous as i said before. hardly any to none problems reported with them. Good handeling, pillowball uppermounts, adjustable everything. all i need.

Again Yes, if your building a pro track car you need something better. but i simply just aint doing that. These coils will be great for daily use and handeling. Dont tell me they wont improve handeling cuz they will. are you saying 100s of people are lying because 2-3 engineers think they dont. Once again. i read nothing but positive things about these coils.

Why would i spend 2000 pounds on coils while this set will be just great for me?
I know they are cheaper coils and probably aint the perfect ones compared to the expensive brand shiznit. but saying they are crap is just shiznit.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by boganbusman »

Calm down there buddy, I already said they are fine for what you are using them for. Low and slow = street driving.

I'm just concerned about the part where you say they have "good handling" and people are winning races with this product. Could you link me to some sites or forum topics where these guys are at? As part of my research, I'm very interested in reading about different competitive setups and the pros/cons for each one.
Also I'm glad to be proven wrong if there is adequate evidence to support these Apex coilovers. Dyno graphs and actual data would be a bonus, if you have any of that available.
I'm been searching myself but I can't find a lot of useful info apart from what I already posted.

btw you can reply to this in another thread if you want, we're kinda getting off-topic.
http://forum.nfsunlimited.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5903
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by Texhnolith »

I think you and be both have a totaly different view on good handeling. Im talking great handeling for a daily road car, and im still sure my car with those coils will give me just that. You cant tell me those coils will give me the same handeling as my stock suspension. just lower.


http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=267612
This car will be running the same coils as me. And this is definatly a track build ride :)

Cant find info that easily, i just read posts in topics about it on the forum there.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by topsy kret1 »

are you going to do the brakes? you should use Brembo or Endless. anyway, are you what parts are you still waiting on(if any)?

what type of intake are you using? a friend of mine has a 240sx about the same year and would like some other opinions(i told him to go with K and N)
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by Texhnolith »

I got original calipers (renewd) with Ferodo DS2500 pads and 315mm grooved/drilled brembo discs. Installed and working ;)

im currently waiting for the suspension upgrades and got a chip/boostcontroler/decat/gauges at home waiting to be installed.

All is listed in my first post i think.

Got a GReddy Airinx intake. I'd go for an Apexi filter if where to buy a new one.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by topsy kret1 »

it been a while since i've heard of Apexi. i'll let him know. :) what type of exaust do you have? (cat-back, high flow, etc) are you going to do the interior?
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by Texhnolith »

Again, read the first post to see all mods i have.

- Blitz Nur Spec R Catback (quite loud)
- Jeroentje.nl 3" Frontpipe
- JCP 3" Elbow
- Prophecy Imports Silenced 3" Decat.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by topsy kret1 »

sounds like all you need is time to get every thing in from shipping. :) that cool. if you had to sell and get a new car, what would it be?

(i'd pick the new GT-R, 370Z, or the new M3)
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by Texhnolith »

euh, dont intend to sell, im not even finished with this one yet Oo
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by topsy kret1 »

i know, but if you had no other options, which new car(07-09) would you get?


(hypathetically speaking of course)
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by Texhnolith »

im more a sucker for older cars.

240Z, KPGC10, Hemi Cuda. etc.
new probably an R35, new challenger
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by steelsnake00 »

topsy kret1 wrote:are you going to do the brakes? you should use Brembo or Endless. anyway, are you what parts are you still waiting on(if any)?

what type of intake are you using? a friend of mine has a 240sx about the same year and would like some other opinions(i told him to go with K and N)
Brembo are a rip unless it's for racing use, though not to same degree that Alcon are. AP Racing are good for aftermarket street use (they were fantastic on my M3), and most 200SX users tend to go for Skyline calipers (a mate of mine had an S14 with R33 GT-R calipers out front and the standard front Brembo 2-pots out rear)
Standard K&N filters are prone to heat soak on turbocharged engines unless they are heat shielded. They're fine for restricted engine bay space, but I'd always advise a proper cold air intake setup.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by boganbusman »

Texhnolith wrote:http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=267612
This car will be running the same coils as me. And this is definatly a track build ride :)
That car isn't even finished? I'm looking for someone who actually has results.
Texhnolith wrote:i just read posts in topics about it on the forum there.
:|
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by Texhnolith »

no that car aint finished yet. but i used that as an example since i knew where too find it.
I was at work so i wont be trolling a forum all day just to find those posts. I have got work to do instead.

Team Apex Performance has won races, even send to the US too compete in red bull drift challenge etc.
You think a team runs proper track build car would use shiznit coils on their latest project.

No im not able to find their other posts/projects atm since that forum is HUGE.
But if you dont want too believe me.. dont.
I know i wont be getting some poor non working product thats nothing but show as you claim.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by viper16 »

Texhnolith wrote:no that car aint finished yet. but i used that as an example since i knew where too find it.
I was at work so i wont be trolling a forum all day just to find those posts. I have got work to do instead.

Team Apex Performance has won races, even send to the US too compete in red bull drift challenge etc.
You think a team runs proper track build car would use shiznit coils on their latest project.

No im not able to find their other posts/projects atm since that forum is HUGE.
But if you dont want too believe me.. dont.
I know i wont be getting some poor non working product thats nothing but show as you claim.
Apex Performance is the Yellow R33 with the LS1 right. As for coils why didnt you look into like DG5, Eibach, KW, or Zeal they may be expensive but the quality is very good. A ? about what steelsnake said if I use Skyline Calipers dont I need to convert it to 5 Lug and use GTR Rotors or do the calipers just bolt up.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by Grez~Supra_RZ-S »

Just to add my two pence...

K-Sport and Apex are re-branded D2s, and I have to agree with Bogan that the price in the kit does indeed affect the quality. I don't think you realise just how many people have had problems with leaking valves with these units, that's the biggest reason that I ended up going for Spax. Bren's customers have all had their kits re-furbished free of charge, hence the positive reputation on the SXOC, it has very little to do with their performance (You'll notice 'Bling' and 'Yak', two of the most prolific racers on there both use Ohlins). Of course Team Apex use their own kit, it's not a particularly good marketing strategy to be the only EU dealer of the parts, but use Tein etc. Also, for what it's worth, Bren hasn't actually won anything in his R33, and Si hasn't in his S13, either. I was chatting to them at TOTBV and they were talking of teething issues with the projects then, Brens R33 wasn't in a state to race, and Si was coming in every lap with a new problem. Don't get me wrong, they're great guys (Bren helped me massively with my S13, and his business is the best-run car parts dealer I know), but you're not talking Senna and Prost here. They're not engineers, they're not Formula 1 Drivers, they're enthusiasts, and businessmen.

The spring rates of the coil-overs you bought IIRC are 9.6kg/mm, which makes them the same as mine. On the road, my car handles bloody awfully. The spring/damping rates are'nt fast enough to keep up with the surface of the roads (tracks don't have this problem), so once again I must agree with Bogan in that the ride is massively compromised for a daily, street driven car. Though it will certainly feel faster (lower cars always do), I'd put a wager on it being slower round your favourite B-roads.

If you're happy with the kit, and the benefits they provide, then really that's all that matters. But arguing their merits based on the people who sell them, the SXOC who use them (when let's face it, regular posters aside, most are retarded, and the regulars don't use K-Sports etc) is seriously flawed.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by Texhnolith »

Mine will be 5/4kg.mm going for the comfy setup.

As i stated many times before now, i know for sure these coilovers will provide me with what i need. I am by no means a track racer what so ever, i just wanted better handeling for when im on the road. and that it should do just fine. Especialy for the price ill be getting them at. 297.5 UK Pounds for the set. massive discount due to me organizing a groupbuy for Apex on the dutch SXOC. For that price no kit can beat it i dare to say. Or id have to get 60-70% off a expensive brand.
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by topsy kret1 »

i've been wondering if your suspension came in the mail yet. i don't know why people keep bashing your choice of brand. they all improve a stock car so what's the point in arguing over a specific brand for more than an entire page? Tex has tested evidance (from people who drive a similar car) that this suspension will do what HE wants. not what anyone else wants. he's not going to change his mind and he's not going to get different shocks so stop giving him info he doesn't need.

great choice on cars though. have you seen the new Challenger with the Viper V10? it's quite vicious :twisted:
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by viper16 »

topsy kret1 wrote:i've been wondering if your suspension came in the mail yet. i don't know why people keep bashing your choice of brand. they all improve a stock car so what's the point in arguing over a specific brand for more than an entire page? Tex has tested evidance (from people who drive a similar car) that this suspension will do what HE wants. not what anyone else wants. he's not going to change his mind and he's not going to get different shocks so stop giving him info he doesn't need.

great choice on cars though. have you seen the new Challenger with the Viper V10? it's quite vicious :twisted:
quit going off topic. that has nothing to do with this thread
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Re: Texhnolith's 1998 Nissan Silvia S14a (200sx) SR20DET

Post by Grez~Supra_RZ-S »

topsy kret1 wrote:i don't know why people keep bashing your choice of brand. they all improve a stock car so what's the point in arguing over a specific brand for more than an entire page? Tex has tested evidance (from people who drive a similar car) that this suspension will do what HE wants. not what anyone else wants. he's not going to change his mind and he's not going to get different shocks so stop giving him info he doesn't need.
The point is, just because you spend £400+ on replacing an OEM part, doesn't mean it will perform better. Nissan invested millions, and had a team of people researching and developing the stock springs/shockers. Plus the evidence comes largely from retards who can barely string a sentence together, let alone test a car to its limits. I should know, I'm part of the same car club still.

As I said though, as long as he's happy with them, it's fine.
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