Any real tuners?

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steelsnake00
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Post by steelsnake00 »

boganbusman wrote:
darknight788 wrote:you can always get a high flow cat. it is still straight through but when cops look under your car it looks like a cat
A high-flow cat is not an empty shell, darknight :roll:
What he said. My S2 used to run a high-flow cat, but a gutted cat really made no difference other than pushing emissions through the roof.
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Post by ZOMBE »

Gutted cats do make a difference, and having no cats make even a bigger difference. I got better 1/4 mile times from stock to gutted cats then to no cats.
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Post by steelsnake00 »

A gutted cat and a decat are essentially the same.
A gutted cat is a piece of metal with nothing inside it. A decat pipe is a piece of metal with nothing inside it.
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Post by ZOMBE »

Basically you only want a cat if you have no turbo or a small engine cause you could use the backpressure.
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Post by steelsnake00 »

Or if you want your car to be road legal and pass MOT's.
Though it's true a car can pass its MOT without a cat if it's running well, most MOT places now check to see whether it's been de-catted and won't give you the ticket if it has, even if it's technically ok on emmisions.

Heres an example of how little difference running catless compared to a high-flow cat makes:
On the last dyno run my S2 did before I sold it, it was running the standard 2.2l ABY I5 20V Turbo. RS2 inlet manifold, RS2 exhaust manifold, Schrick exhaust cam with a 7A inlet cam, Garrett GT3071R turbocharger, high-flow cat and an uprated FMIC, fluidyne oil cooler, uprated HG and ARP bolts, QST optimised remap, 550cc Bosch injectors and a few other minor mods.
She put out 473 at the crank (equating to 413 at the wheels) with 477lb ft with a high-flow cat. Out of interest I swapped it for a gutted cat I'd been using for track day driving, and it came out as....476 crank (about 415 at the wheels) and torque had dropped to 469lb ft. Though it's entirely plausable that whatever difference the gutted cat made was completely removed by othe factors (increase in ambient air temperature, MAF readings, intercooler temperature, oil temp ect) I've never noticed a single bit of difference on a track or dragstrip between running a gutted cat or running a high-flow one.
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Post by ZOMBE »

yeah but with a turbo you dont need the backpressure, so any type of cat would slow you down, thus why at tracks people run just headers. If cats helped more then non cats people would use em. I noticed the difference cause they were in my time slips, all though I went from stock to gutted to no cats and noticed through stock - no cats a whole second difference, then I added a K&N FIPK with NGK Copper spark plugs and got a about .300 out of that.
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Post by steelsnake00 »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. shiznit.
Adding a K&N and some new plugs will make 0 difference to a 1/4ml run. Not one tiny bit.
The whole backpressure thing is largely irrelivent anyway, it only makes a difference when you have masses of it, I.E an extremely low flowing cat.
People run open headers at tracks (though not in the UK or Europe as it's illegal on account of noise polution) because taking about 8ft of stainless steel off the bottom of a car reduces it's weight.
You would not get a 1s difference from removing cats. It just isn't physically possible.

What I personally think is more likely is that you haven't got a good launch technique yet, and that's why theres wild fluctuations in your 1/4ml times, because sometimes you plant it and it goes, and sometimes you plant it and it just spins the wheels. You also have to take into account temperatures, the temp of your tyres, what tyres you are running et cetera.
I would hazard a guess to say that a 5 degree downward fluctuation in air temperature would have more effect on your 1/4ml time than removing your cats.
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Post by ZOMBE »

lol wont make one difference? Thats one of the most retarded things I ever heard. And they dont take it off cause it recudes weight, its cause its 100% flowing, no long pipe to go down or cats or resonators to boggle it. And no theres no flucuations in my 1/4 mile, it was running the same every other time until I did those mods then it ran over a second difference. I mean you say stuff like you know what your talking about, anybody who knows anything knows plugs make a difference, air filts or intakes, exhausts, if they didnt nobody would do it. I trust my friends who have 2 world records with their cars and my dads mechnic over some kid on a NFS forum who think he knows cars.
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Post by steelsnake00 »

Plugs make a difference on a racing engine, not a standard one. The standard plugs won't even be aproaching their performance limit with negligable engine mods.
Most ultra-high performance cars run without any kind of filter to speak of. People use K&N filters on high performance cars because they take up less space than an airbox, and can be moved around the car to feed colder air. Other people, I.E people who run the same kind of performance level as you (very mild modifications) fit upgraded filters and exhausts because they think "wow, those high-performance street cars use them, so why don't I?" Besides, they will make no difference without the ECU being remapped to alter fueling maps; you may well just end up running lean, which is VERY bad for an engine.

Of course removing an entire exhaust system will make a difference to flow levels, but on many cars there are oxygen sensors fitted in the exhaust branch behind the manifold, which alter ECU mapping coresponsind to levels of Oxygen and other gasses in the exhaust. Removing these causes most cars to run like a bag of toss at full throtle when warm. If removing the exhaust in it's entirety makes so much difference to the cars performance, then why do most drag cars still run with their exhaust fitted, just with straight through or gutted cats and resonators removed. You also have to bear in mind that many engines are built to run with a degree of back pressure, and removing this actually causes the engine mapping to go into "limp home because something's broken" mode.

I don't think I know cars, I do know cars. Sorry kid, grow up.
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Post by RSZETEC »

Sorry kid, but steelsnake is right, decats make sod all difference, i had one on my fiesta and gained absolutly nothing, as for k&ns i actually lost power with mine, the only reason i have an apiro induction kit onmy car is the last owner put it on and i dont have the standard airbox(which is better than any induction kit i find).PLugs do not make a difference at all, only if your old plugs are knackered and losing you about 10bhp anyway. the only reason i have ngks is cos the motorfactors own plugs last about 50 miles.the rason most racecars run uprated plugs/leads is to change the strength/period of the spark i,e stronger(but shorter) spark for high compression engines and longer(yet weaker) spark for low compression engines.So instead of spedning money on decats,plugs or filters look at how tunable the engine is to start with. My car started out with a 1.6 16v engine, but will have(very soon again)a 2.0 16v engine jumping from 90bhp to 130bhp for 100notes. the 1.6 isnt tunable at all because of the tiny valves so instead of wasting money on it ive opted just to up the cc's and fit a better engine. look at the bigger picture before you start modding

aaaand breathe lol
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Post by steelsnake00 »

I was waiting for someone to back me up, thanks RSZETEC.
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Post by darknight788 »

i never said HFC's were an empty shell but on alot of them you can see right through them. and yea if you are trying to tune a 1.6L your really not going to get anywhere. is your car obd1 or 2 if it is 1 then your o2 sensor is before your cat if it is 2 then you have 2 o2 sensors one before and one after. if you remove your oem cat the o2 sensor after it will detect a problem and like steelsnake said go into limp mode. there are ways around it tho you can get a simple resistor to trick the ecu into thinking that the stock cat is still there.
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Post by ZOMBE »

steelsnake00 wrote:Plugs make a difference on a racing engine, not a standard one. The standard plugs won't even be aproaching their performance limit with negligable engine mods.
Most ultra-high performance cars run without any kind of filter to speak of. People use K&N filters on high performance cars because they take up less space than an airbox, and can be moved around the car to feed colder air. Other people, I.E people who run the same kind of performance level as you (very mild modifications) fit upgraded filters and exhausts because they think "wow, those high-performance street cars use them, so why don't I?" Besides, they will make no difference without the ECU being remapped to alter fueling maps; you may well just end up running lean, which is VERY bad for an engine.

Of course removing an entire exhaust system will make a difference to flow levels, but on many cars there are oxygen sensors fitted in the exhaust branch behind the manifold, which alter ECU mapping coresponsind to levels of Oxygen and other gasses in the exhaust. Removing these causes most cars to run like a bag of toss at full throtle when warm. If removing the exhaust in it's entirety makes so much difference to the cars performance, then why do most drag cars still run with their exhaust fitted, just with straight through or gutted cats and resonators removed. You also have to bear in mind that many engines are built to run with a degree of back pressure, and removing this actually causes the engine mapping to go into "limp home because something's broken" mode.

I don't think I know cars, I do know cars. Sorry kid, grow up.
Lol you say you know cars, you really dont. You try to talk all technical so people think you know what your talking about, your saying people who hold 2 out of 3 world records for fastest cars are wrong? Not possible if they were they wouldnt be holding close to even one record. Everybody does the upgrades I did cause they work plain and simple. You dont know a reworked ecm or tcu or any of that. the fastest AWD car is running stock block, stock tcu(yes its a auto), and stock ecm.
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Post by TheStig »

It's most likely a auto cause they can't bloody shift :lol: sorry I just had to say that :D

BTW where is GREZ when you need him :wink:
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Post by xHaZxMaTx »

You better watch it, ZOMBE, Grez and steelsnake are the car peeps 'round here. ;) They'll tear ya' a new one.
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Post by ZOMBE »

No their auto cause auto shifts better, idiots then manual is better in 1/4 mile, a manual is good for highway use or oval track use. No human can shift faster then a well built transmission computer. Their actually going on Pinks doing a special show racing 16 other people. Their auto is acting up cause so they have to use manual until they get it fixed, but they broke the world records using auto. Idc if they think they know cars or not HaZ, I was born into the shiznit and half my family had true muscle cars, hell even my grandma was a mechnic. Its not that they know a lot, its that most people dont know a lot so they think their car guru's, when Grez and steelsnake really arent.
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Post by darknight788 »

what are you guys arguing about ? slush box trannies or knowing what there is to know about cars ?
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Post by boganbusman »

Ok ZOMBE, not only do I know many mechanics but I'm a mechanic myself. Everything that Steelsnake has pointed out to you is correct, and your attitude is absolutely pathetic.

You should be taking this opportunity to learn from others, but instead you think you know it all. On this forum, we deal with people like yourself all the time. We are right, you are wrong. Either accept it and learn, or leave.
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Post by steelsnake00 »

ZOMBE wrote: Lol you say you know cars, you really dont. You try to talk all technical so people think you know what your talking about, your saying people who hold 2 out of 3 world records for fastest cars are wrong? Not possible if they were they wouldnt be holding close to even one record. Everybody does the upgrades I did cause they work plain and simple. You dont know a reworked ecm or tcu or any of that. the fastest AWD car is running stock block, stock tcu(yes its a auto), and stock ecm.
No, I'm saying that they don't hold the records, because the fastest FWD 1/4ml time for a street legal car (if you exempt S.L's then it's a top fuel dragster, which isn't really a car) is held by a Suzuki Swift GTi, and that record is Australian. I believe the fastest street legal 1/4ml for an AWD car is held either by a tuned S1 Quattro in Norway, though there has been some dispuit about it's street legality, or by a US R33 Skyline GTST.
I know for a fact that the Quattro runs a pair of Presicion Turbos PT76's directly in front of the headlight fairings, with the headlights removed and replaced with drain rings. If your taking nigh-on 2000bhp then you won't have much success running it with any kind of air filter, it's still too restrictive. I don't know much about the process of mapping ECMs or ECU's but I've had enough of the damn things done to know that once you start modifying an engine in any way, for it to recieve a power boost from the mods it is nessesary to alter the ECU fuel and air maps, and with cams, altered pistons and compression, ITB conversion, turbochargers, altered crankshafts and bigger blocks the ignition timing needs to be altered as well.
No engine block on the PLANET can take 2000bhp without extensive modification. Top Fuel dragsters take around three to four times this for 4 seconds in an extremely heavily modified engine and still need a rebuild every race.
Auto boxes are good at taking punishment, but I think you'll find they aren't that quick for changeovers. Twin clutch semi-auto boxes like the Audi DSG make the fastest changeovers, and have the compromise of functioning like both a manual and automatic. People only tend to run Auto boxes on a 1/4ml because of the way they are designed; it means they can take much more torque than a normal manual box. Oddly enough, many of the Scandinavian drag cars, including the S1 Quattro in question run a manual Getrag 6-speed box cripped from the E36 M3, as with minor reinforcements it can take around 1000lb ft and with a full overhaul twice that, plus has the perfect ratios for a 1/4ml (besides 6th, which is very, very long and gives most cars a gear limited speed of about 230)
ZOMBE wrote:No their auto cause auto shifts better, idiots then manual is better in 1/4 mile, a manual is good for highway use or oval track use. No human can shift faster then a well built transmission computer. Their actually going on Pinks doing a special show racing 16 other people. Their auto is acting up cause so they have to use manual until they get it fixed, but they broke the world records using auto. Idc if they think they know cars or not HaZ, I was born into the shiznit and half my family had true muscle cars, hell even my grandma was a mechnic. Its not that they know a lot, its that most people dont know a lot so they think their car guru's, when Grez and steelsnake really arent.
I'm no car guru, I know what I'm experianced in and thats BMW, Volkswagen Audi Group and nowadays Porsche engines. But even for someone who has only a moderate ammount of experiance with engine modification and building, I can plainly see that you are completely wrong. Because of the design of auto boxes, it means that shift speeds on them are immensely long compared to stuff like Semi-Auto boxes (you idiot, why do you think that they'd build a semi-auto for performance rather than a switchable auto?) and a human shift is alot more precice, often faster and almost always creates less drivetrain power loss than an auto shift (read up on how auto boxes work and you'll understand why).

Really, listen for once in your life, you might learn something.
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Post by ZOMBE »

steelsnake00 wrote:
ZOMBE wrote: Lol you say you know cars, you really dont. You try to talk all technical so people think you know what your talking about, your saying people who hold 2 out of 3 world records for fastest cars are wrong? Not possible if they were they wouldnt be holding close to even one record. Everybody does the upgrades I did cause they work plain and simple. You dont know a reworked ecm or tcu or any of that. the fastest AWD car is running stock block, stock tcu(yes its a auto), and stock ecm.
No, I'm saying that they don't hold the records, because the fastest FWD 1/4ml time for a street legal car (if you exempt S.L's then it's a top fuel dragster, which isn't really a car) is held by a Suzuki Swift GTi, and that record is Australian. I believe the fastest street legal 1/4ml for an AWD car is held either by a tuned S1 Quattro in Norway, though there has been some dispuit about it's street legality, or by a US R33 Skyline GTST.
I know for a fact that the Quattro runs a pair of Presicion Turbos PT76's directly in front of the headlight fairings, with the headlights removed and replaced with drain rings. If your taking nigh-on 2000bhp then you won't have much success running it with any kind of air filter, it's still too restrictive. I don't know much about the process of mapping ECMs or ECU's but I've had enough of the damn things done to know that once you start modifying an engine in any way, for it to recieve a power boost from the mods it is nessesary to alter the ECU fuel and air maps, and with cams, altered pistons and compression, ITB conversion, turbochargers, altered crankshafts and bigger blocks the ignition timing needs to be altered as well.
No engine block on the PLANET can take 2000bhp without extensive modification. Top Fuel dragsters take around three to four times this for 4 seconds in an extremely heavily modified engine and still need a rebuild every race.
Auto boxes are good at taking punishment, but I think you'll find they aren't that quick for changeovers. Twin clutch semi-auto boxes like the Audi DSG make the fastest changeovers, and have the compromise of functioning like both a manual and automatic. People only tend to run Auto boxes on a 1/4ml because of the way they are designed; it means they can take much more torque than a normal manual box. Oddly enough, many of the Scandinavian drag cars, including the S1 Quattro in question run a manual Getrag 6-speed box cripped from the E36 M3, as with minor reinforcements it can take around 1000lb ft and with a full overhaul twice that, plus has the perfect ratios for a 1/4ml (besides 6th, which is very, very long and gives most cars a gear limited speed of about 230)
ZOMBE wrote:No their auto cause auto shifts better, idiots then manual is better in 1/4 mile, a manual is good for highway use or oval track use. No human can shift faster then a well built transmission computer. Their actually going on Pinks doing a special show racing 16 other people. Their auto is acting up cause so they have to use manual until they get it fixed, but they broke the world records using auto. Idc if they think they know cars or not HaZ, I was born into the shiznit and half my family had true muscle cars, hell even my grandma was a mechnic. Its not that they know a lot, its that most people dont know a lot so they think their car guru's, when Grez and steelsnake really arent.
I'm no car guru, I know what I'm experianced in and thats BMW, Volkswagen Audi Group and nowadays Porsche engines. But even for someone who has only a moderate ammount of experiance with engine modification and building, I can plainly see that you are completely wrong. Because of the design of auto boxes, it means that shift speeds on them are immensely long compared to stuff like Semi-Auto boxes (you idiot, why do you think that they'd build a semi-auto for performance rather than a switchable auto?) and a human shift is alot more precice, often faster and almost always creates less drivetrain power loss than an auto shift (read up on how auto boxes work and you'll understand why).

Really, listen for once in your life, you might learn something.
For one a fuel dragster isnt a CAR, http://www.3sx.com/racing/ check their they hold the record for fastest FWD and fastest AWD car. And im not wrong, again ill trust a family who has been in the automotive business, mine, and my dads 35 yr mechanic over a bunch of people who rice out their NFS cars then wish they had the money in real life to rice out their moms honda.
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Post by steelsnake00 »

Have you seen any of my cars?
You are wrong. You can argue with me until you're blue in the face but I will continue pulling up facts and figures to prove you haven't got a single clue what your talking about.
Those records are nowhere near world records. Perhaps for a 3000GT they are the records, but not for every vehicle on the market. There are AWD Audis and Skyline doing runs in low 7 seconds across the globe. For both the AWD car and the FWD car, they are claiming the world records for the fastest 3000's/Stealths, not for cars in general. The FWD record, after a little research, is 7.934 seconds in a Mazda 6.

So I'm sorry, but you loose!
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Post by darknight788 »

@ ZOMBE steelsnake is right ya know, now just leave it be
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Post by RSZETEC »

Obviously that automotive skill isnt genetic, you obviously dont have any idea about cars, a decat taking a second on the 1/4 :lol: theres people spent 1000's on their car just for that second. And dont try and say i know nothing of cars ive got a 1.7 cvh race engine sitting in my shed that kicks out 210bhp at about 8500rpm that i built, because i thought about waht parts are going into not jus sticking a filter and exahust on and thinking itll make it waaaay faster, just an example of what can be done when you forward plan
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Post by darknight788 »

lol thats what i did with my car i bought all my parts off ebay and slapped them on. they did actually give it some more power and better gas milegae
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Post by Grez~Supra_RZ-S »

This is interesting... :P

Zombe - You need to learn just what a Cat is, and how it works. You should already know that a cats only purpose is to reduce the harmful emissions being expelled from the cylinder after each explosion/revolution. Heres how they work:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter2.htm

Depending on the car depends on how many cats the exhaust system requires. For example, my car doesnt have one. My brothers Impreza has two, and the 406 coupe (V6) has three. As steelsnake said, some systems have 02 sensors placed in varying locations along the system, some even in the cat itself. If youve ever played with a car with EFI, you just pull an 02 sensor out of the loop somewhere. If the car even runs at all, Id be surprised. In my SX, I once got a piece of dust on the 02 sensor, and the car wouldnt rev above 2500rpm.

With that in mind, cats really do very little. The sensors within them do. The only cars that run with open headers are V8s, usually muscle cars. This is because theyre carb'd, and dont use any electronic equipment as far as the engine is concerned. This is done, again as steel said, for weight saving. Given the size of most American cars of the day, and given the low-grade steel those exhausts were originally made from, thats a lot of weight to lose.

To be honest, Id be surprised if you can even drive, let alone race. Ive been drag racing for some time now, and theres no way in hell, even at a ridiculously slow level, that a cat bypass will release a second of time. Even after a full days drag racing, whereby my fuel tank had gone from half (around 25kg of fuel) to less than a quarter, I was still only looking at reductions of 0.2secs. Reducing the tyre pressures to get more grip yielded the same.

People upgrade their exhaust systems for two reasons. One is noise, thats probably 90% of people. The other is that, when the cylinder is taking on more work than it would normally, it needs to expel the gases out of the exhaust valves as quickly as possible, then out of the system entirely. An example of the cylinder taking on more work would be an increase in oxygen, thereby an increase in fuel, and therefore a bigger explosion. This could happen for many reasons, but usually only when the engine is quite highly-strung. Adding an air filter and a Ripspeed sticker doesnt make the engine highly strung Im afraid.
http://www.3sx.com/racing/ check their they hold the record for fastest FWD and fastest AWD car
...I hope youre kidding.

John Shepherd - 8.0 @ 190mph without nitrous

Sheps car

He has since run a 7.7 @ 191mph proof. Whats better? Sheps car is only the fastest street legal AWD car, and only the fastest 4 cylinder. There are bigger fish even than him. Whats also worth noting is that Sheps car runs on relatively poor octane fuel, only uses a 100-shot of nitrous, and its still a 2.0litre.
No human can shift faster then a well built transmission computer
The MKIV Supra uses a gehtrag auto box, regarded widely as one of the greatest technological marvels the auto-transmission world has ever known. Even in the Supra owners manual, Toyota themselves state that the box is only quicker from second gear up. Bearing in mind the auto box only has four-speeds, thats only quicker in two gears. Auto transmissions are heavy, they require torque converters, and there are usually so many settings on the better-designed ones that its impossible to know which ones are best. High-stall torque converters can mess with the engines firing system, causing misfires above certain rpms. We found this with a friends MKIV after his torque converter died. After fitting a high-stall item (which should in theory allow for a higher-rpm launch), he was running almost half a second slower than previously due to a severe misfire. For what its worth, he now owns a 750rwhp Supra...manual.

The quickest-shifting gearboxes in the world are the ones used in all of the top-end forms of motorsport. Sequential 'boxes.
its that most people dont know a lot so they think their car guru's, when Grez and steelsnake really arent
So if we're dumba*ses...whats your racing pedigree? What do you drive, or bring to the table thats better than we are? Illiterate ramblings (what the hell is a mechnic anyway?!), half-thought insults and car-knowledge that even my girlfriend knew was wrong. :oops: :wink:
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