Best racing game shift2 or forza

[wobblycaptain]

OK fellow racers,which do you think is the best racing game

Having played forza alot and a real fan of motorsport and racing games...i have to vote for shift2..its fantastic..

and cant see why people are so loyal to forza you mention shift2 to them and you get what *********

so shift2 for me

[LITE992]

I remember playing Forza and not liking it, but that was back when I had little interest in sim racing. I should still have the demo of Forza 3 on my 360. I'll get back to this thread after I remember to try the demo. What I don't understand is how the Forza community acts like such d*cks towards the Need for Speed community, even more now that Shift came out.

[wobblycaptain]

I remember playing Forza and not liking it, but that was back when I had little interest in sim racing. I should still have the demo of Forza 3 on my 360. I'll get back to this thread after I remember to try the demo. What I don't understand is how the Forza community acts like such d*cks towards the Need for Speed community, even more now that Shift came out.

i know what you mean, i get loads of abuse when i mention shift 2, to forza players

[LITE992]

Ok, I've been playing the Forza 3 demo, but I've had to stop a bit for exams. They're both good games, but I like Shift 2 more. But let's face it: I've never driven a race car. I've never pushed a car to its limits of grip. So when I'm given a racing game and told it's realistic, I've got to trust the devs of said game that it is realistic as I don't have the real thing to compare it to.

While Shift 2's AI is capable of stupid things at times, Forza's are dumb all around. Shift 2's AI drivers will fight for position but will also back off to avoid a collision. Forza's AI is hardly even aware of your presence and will mindlessly collide with you because you are on their programmed line . The handling of the cars is really smooth in contrast to the shoddy AI . Even with all assists off, the cars are quite easy to learn. Shift 2's cars never perform their best out of the box, they require some tuning . Also, off road handling in both games is different. Forza has a more realistic representation (in my opinion) with all wheels sliding than in Shift 2, where the car suffers a bad case of understeer.

Visual-wise (note how I didn't say graphics) both games show off their photo realistic graphics with their stunning details, environments and lighting. Shift 2 has a much better sense of speed, to the point where it's terrifying. It also has the more in-depth cockpit view, which is one of the first games where I also felt the sense of speed from the swingman view transferred into a cockpit view, which is usually boring like it is in Forza 3. In the words of a Forza fanboy: "yeah ok sh*t shakes around... we get it ." Just so you know, g-forces cause that kind of effect when driving a race car, which is absent from Forza.

Not going too much into the audio component, but Shift 2's vehicle sounds are the best I've heard in any racing game.

I'll give the Forza 3 demo some more time after I'm done my exams, and I'll see if I enjoy it enough to buy the game, or get Forza 4 when it comes out. Right now I'm finding Shift 2 more enjoyable, because it captures the excitement of racing. I might still get Forza 3 or 4 just because I love racing; this isn't a case of "my games bettur then urs" I'm actually open to new experiences, unlike most fanboys.

[Kaerar]

The thing I've found with Forza is that it's just so GT5 on the Xbox. By that I mean everything feels numb. The gfx are only good in photo mode unlike Shift, though on that note Shift 2 looks FAR better on PC than either console. The handling in Shift 2 is also far better than either Forza or GT5 (played more GT5 than I care to remember too...). It's very visceral and involving whereas Forza and GT5 are just lacking that feel.

Shift 2 isn't without it's flaws but I find that I see them less than the others as it engages me more than them.

[zedex]

I can't compare to Forza since I don't own a 360, but I can compare to GT5...

S2U is more of a driving game, and GT5 is more of a collection game
you get the thrills driving the cars, and you have the time of your life taking photos in GT5... and collecting the 1000+ cars

those are the main differences...

now throw in Forza into the equation, comparing graphics, Forza look plain CG... not realistic at all imo... the reflections are TOO CLEAN! there is NO WAY a real life car can have all the panels reflecting 1 plain colour at any time anywhere, when it's outside... I've seen countless screenshots and videos of Forza's in-game footage and I always have that same reaction, where I want to scream "UGH! it's TOO CG!!!"

not so much the case for S2U... and when in photo-mode, GT5 (where it's THE MOST REALISTIC photographical rendering I've EVER SEEN!... with the exception of flat brake disks... when the car's stationary)

driving wise, is like I mentioned earlier, you feel like you're actually driving in S2U, while in GT5, you're just remote controlling a "life-size" car...

although some may scream "S2U's handling's SO BAD it's SO FAKE it's the WORST I've EVER SEEN!"... I don't give a damn... each car handles differently, and they behave the ways I expect them to... GT5's a bit too soft on that aspect, and more feel like a boat than a car... there's no roughness in GT5... same for the tracks...

S2U's tracks, you feel the bumps and the cracks, and the rumble... GT5's TOO SMOOTH! and clean!

comparing S2U and GT5 is like comparing a Hockey Arena's locker vs a Golf Club's locker...
one is rough, smelly, but very hardcore and the other's clean, nice, and very civilized

[Hydro_PT]

although some may scream "S2U's handling's SO BAD it's SO FAKE it's the WORST I've EVER SEEN!"... I don't give a damn... each car handles differently, and they behave the ways I expect them to...

If you play a simulator you will change your opinion quickly lool. The cars in SHIFT, especially when you drive the more powerful cars (Modern A, Modern B, GT3, GT1, etc.), have a very unrealistic handling. They slide to much and there's too much body roll. Not to talk about other things.

I'm not saying it is bad, I actually enjoy the handling in SHIFT 2 (already liked it in SHIFT 1) But it is not realistic at all. It's fun, it's entertaining, but not realistic. A real car never would never handle like that.

Just my 2cents.

[zedex]

although some may scream "S2U's handling's SO BAD it's SO FAKE it's the WORST I've EVER SEEN!"... I don't give a damn... each car handles differently, and they behave the ways I expect them to...

If you play a simulator you will change your opinion quickly lool. The cars in SHIFT, especially when you drive the more powerful cars (Modern A, Modern B, GT3, GT1, etc.), have a very unrealistic handling. They slide to much and there's too much body roll. Not to talk about other things.

I'm not saying it is bad, I actually enjoy the handling in SHIFT 2 (already liked it in SHIFT 1) But it is not realistic at all. It's fun, it's entertaining, but not realistic. A real car never would never handle like that.

Just my 2cents.

see that's what I mean... you're nitpicking the "corner slides"...

with the amazing cockpit view, I never actually "see" my car slide, I sometimes feel I slide but it's controllable... rather, if the car was planted without sliding even a single bit through a corner, I rather find it highly UNrealistic, in physics sense...

and when I mean by "they handle the way I expect them to", is that RWD slide more, FWD understeer, and AWD are very stable through the corners, and classic muscles are all over the track when you floor it...

I wouldn't consider "other simulators" as basis for what is correct neither... it's starting to become a bit like how much of a recoil a gun should have in FPS games... when Medal of Honor came out, and M16/M4 had almost close to zero recoil, and players complained how "fake" it was... I did some research and found that those weapons are specifically preferred by US military simply for the LACK OF RECOIL... yet people complained it "wasn't realistic because it had no recoil" ... huh!? basing their knowledge of real life physics in other games too much? (aka Call of Duty)

there are ALWAYS inconsistencies from real life in ALL simulators... I don't think ANY computer can perfectly simulate how a certain car would drive through a certain path without flaw, so there's no true "realistic" or "unrealistic" game, or simulator, because they ALL are unrealistic... there's no G-force, no shake, no TRUE force feedback, and most important of all, the lack of FEEL of the car you're driving...

and that last, Shift 2 Unleashed is THE GAME that has gotten closest to getting it right... the FEELING, which I find is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than how it turns around a corner...

and this Video somewhat shows it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2-3JHjeHro

the "whoof!" at 1:40 really shows what I mean... *although he did use a D-BOX racing seat where the whole chair vibrates along with the in-game "motion"... I WANT ONE!*

I don't think he'll have the same reaction after driving the same car, same track in Forza or GT5... or maybe even iRacing, rFactor, Race or many other simulators... it just doesn't portray the thrill from the act of driving... *but of course, nothing beats driving the REAL BMW Z4 GT3 car

[Hydro_PT]

No I'm not nitpicking the corners. It is the whole handling, but especially the sliding in the corners.

You don't see the car sliding? Well I do, but more important, I feel the car sliding. And let me tell you, the basic thing for any driver is to corner at the maximum possible speed without sliding the car. Because in real life, if you let the car slide, you are losing time, you are wearing the tires and the slide might probably lead you off track. So unless you are drifting, you cannot slide on the corners, because that means you are are either cornering too fast or cornering "wrong" (not following the best trajectory, that is). Or your tires might just be cold or wore out.

Also, I feel that people tend to think that RWD cars just oversteer, FWD cars just understeer and AWD cars are very stable. It couldn't be wrong. This depends on a lot of things, one of them, the engine placement. And of course, what you change in the setup. You can give me a RWD car and I can make it understeer like hell.

People tend to use the words "understeer" and "oversteer" when describing the effect of the differential lock. In reality, oversteer is truly the only thing you are actually adjusting. It's only because a lack of oversteer naturally moves the car closer to an understeer condition that understeer is used as a descriptor at all.

As for the simulators (drop the "other" because SHIFT is not a simulator), it is true that no simulator on the market today simulates every single thing a car does in real life. It is not possible (yet). However, if you do some research, you will see that PC simulators nowadays are actually quite close to real racing, when it comes to tracks design, handling of the cars and other factors. Naturally the simulators cannot simulate how dangerous it is to be in a real car, the true G-force you feel, how hot is inside that thing, the noise, etc. They can't, and so cannot SHIFT, because to have that, you would need to spend a lot of money. As for the FFB, you probably don't know but today's wheels and pedals are actually very close to what a driver feels (of course the game must have an excellent FFB system). Race 07 is probably the game with better FFB out there, let's see what rFactor 2 has in store. Oh and one more thing... many real drivers use these games to learn new tracks (including the drivers of the FIA GT1 World Championship). That should give you an idea of how close they are to how a certain car drives in real life under certain conditions.

As for the feel, well I already said this many times. SHIFT's cockpit view is very good, yes you can feel the bumps and speed, but the look-to-apex thing doesn't feel natural (as in all other games, simulators included) and sometimes the shaking is just exagerated. And SHIFT is not the only game where you can feel that, let me tell you. But I already talked about this before and won't repeat myself. I guess EA's marketing has done its job on you hehe.

Finally, that video is awesome but... it is edited. Anything can look damn good with proper editing. And EA knows it. I already drove that car on Laguna Seca and didn't feel half of what I felt while watching the video.

[zedex]

no one is going to convince anyone else by arguing like this, we all have what we prefer, and what we find stupid, and our priorities are different, and nothing is going to change that

me personally, I just DO NOT like seeing the negative sides of everything, as that leads to nitpicking...
there are just too many people online nowadays that just sees and names every single flaw they can while almost ignoring what's "good" about the product

not naming you personally, but I've seen too many of those kind lately that the internet is just too negative of a place to be right now... EVERY SINGLE THING that comes out, there HAS to be someone talking about how "unrealistic" it is, or how "fake" it is, or how "it sucks" because they don't like it, and it's not the way they "wanted"... and more people are doing it so obviously it's more cool to hate huh...

what happened to "take things as they are" now?

"I already drove that car on Laguna Seca and didn't feel half of what I felt while watching the video." of course, I'm not saying everyone should be awestruck by driving that car on that track in S2U, that's not what I was trying to get at, and you're completely missing the point... I'm simply trying to say how "boring" it is in any other "game"... and I can bet you will have more thrills driving it than doing the same on GT5 or Forza 3... or Race07, rFactor, iRacing (maybe)

as a personal experience, S2U driving the same car on Spa, and doing the same on GRID, I was bored to death halfway through the lap, and that's considered arcady physics... so should be more emphasized on "fun" right... same car, Laguna Seca on S2U and GT5... I have to admit I got more cool photos taken in GT5, but the driving was not nearly as thrilling and focused than I was on S2U... the real only tracks I still can have "fun" on GT5 are Nordschleife and Top Gear Test Track...

and after all this being said, I still like GT5, a lot... not in the same way as S2U, but like I said in my previous post, it's more of a game about the cars than about the act of driving them... I enjoy more doing races to win more money to get more cars, and taking photos of them than to race for the "wins" and "challenge"... which let's face it... there isn't much... (when you get all 60 Gold trophies in all the liscences that is)

and if I wanted to, I can also start nitpicking about flaws in both games... because there CAN be a lot... it's quite easy to find them... but I prefer to ignore them, and enjoy the things they offer best

[Hydro_PT]

Arguing like this is healthy.

I'm not trying to convince anyone. It just bothers me that people believe SHIFT is a simulator and the cars do handle like this when in fact things are very different. I guess EA's marketing is doing its job properly. :\ You have the right to like the game, I also enjoy it or otherwise I wouldn't have bought it and started the career 3 times (one of them was already at 50%). But it is just wrong to say it is a simulator and the game that better simulates how a car handles and feels. It shows lack of knowledge, and of course, being I a fan of PC simulators, I cannot resist to, once more, say that SHIFT is not a simulator and cars do not handle like that.

"and I can bet you will have more thrills driving it than doing the same on GT5 or Forza 3... or Race07, rFactor, iRacing (maybe)"

Not really, but that's down to personal taste, of course. I love driving in SHIFT, then hit some off-road in DiRT, go drift to GRID and come back for a realistic online race in Race 07 with pit stops, setups, real players, safety car and all other things that are natural to racing and that people might find boring. But that's just my taste, I can understand how a simulator can feel boring to people. I can find fun and enjoyment in all those games, and many more. But that's me, of course. Nobody has to like simulators or SHIFT. I know people who don't like SHIFT.

Talking about hate, I agree with you on that. There will always be people out there complaining about how bad a game is. But that happens with every single game. I'm not one of those persons. If I have something negative to say about a game, I will, but I will also say how good something is. I won't just hate the game, but I won't just love it. If you know what I mean.

And yes there are flaws in all games. I can quickly name a few in Race 07, for example. No big deal.

[zedex]

seeing your comment about Race07... have you tried F1 2010?
it has most of the features you mentioned, but for Formula 1 season...
graphics are very... I won't say "great" but... very Codemasters like... in other words, a LOT of glow, and a whole lot more of ... brown... which makes it look, how should I say this, "artistic"?

I can't say the physics are great, because some of the "shortcuts" pepole managed to find are probably just impossible in real life, and those are reflected in the fastest lap times that are 3-5 seconds faster than what Micheal Schumacher managed to do using the last of the massive V10 cars... *even with my crappy driving, I managed to beat Barichello's world record time around Circuit Gilles-Villeneuve in Montreal, specifically that one, because it's my local track lol*

but the one thing that really makes this one game apart from all the other "simulators" (or self-proclaimed simulators like Forza, GT5, Shift) is the full list of official FIA rules that you can turn on (or leave some out for easier career advancement, and not get disqualified after half a lap every single race)
and the other, obviously, is the use of Formula 1 cars...
now F1 2011's coming out... but I'm not too excited for it to be honest... there's already a patch for 2010 for the 2011 season made by modding community, and I can't think of what CM can add more to the game to warrant the newly purchase price...

the "official F1 game" made by EA died along with the 2002 season with their F1 97-03 and F1 2002... (which I actually own, and it looked great back in the days) so it's only a matter of time to see how long CM's association with F1 can last... there really is not much point to re-make a game about F1 every year... unlike football (american) or football (soccer) or hockey, where new moves can be implemented into the physics engine year after year, not only the roster... (which can easily be updated via patch, or DLC)

wow I'm really gone off-topic about the original discussion on Shift vs Forza huh...

oh fyi though, I agree that Shift's physics isn't exactly "realistic" per se, but I feel like it's the game that best puts you in a driver's seat when driving at high speeds compared to every other game, where you're litterally SCARED to go too fast, unlike my experience in GT5 where all I do is look at the speedometer and not feel a thing going at 250km/h...

and one of the BIGGEST gripes I have with S2U is how a tiny bump or nudge will get you spinning off track, impossible to recover >.> especially on tight tracks like Nordschleife, Riviera or Mount ehmm Aurora? (still haven't learnt that track yet) and it gets worse when there's a full grid of opponents...

[Hydro_PT]

Yes I tried F1 2010. I also bought it hehe. I like it, I think it looks damn good and it is fun to drive, and the whole "F1 feel" is there. However, as is normal with these games, the handling is arcade and you can easily control the car. There's a mod for Race 07 which adds F1 cars and, even though it was not made by Simbin, it is very realistic. You can see that by comparing lap times in real life and in the simulator. They come pretty close, not like in F1 2010 where you can easily beat the real times. Still I enjoy the game, let's see what Codemasters does to improve it this year.

Bumping into other cars in SHIFT 2 is a bit overdone, but that's mainly to avoid rammers online. At least that's what I think. Still, most of the bumps do look realistic, especially the subtle ones. Others are just weird, a little nudge can send you spinning away lol. And the sandtraps? I love how the car just starts rolling. It is not at the same level as GRID or DiRT, but it looks way better than in PC simulators, where the crash physics are just bad.

[LITE992]

I think of everything, Forza lacks immersion. I've had more thrills driving a Go-Kart than the 911 GT2. It bores me out of my skull. I like the realism of the car's handling, but the game is just boring. There's no sensation of speed, aside from the road passing under the car, and even that is dull. At this point, Forza fanboys will tell me to go back to my blurring cockpit and shaking screen. Maybe I will. While a game can't simulate G-forces, at least Shift 2 trys to visually.

Shift 2 is not without its flaws. I'd like to revise my previous statement about Shift 2's AI: they suck. They exist only to firetruck your day up. They never check their mirrors, and always attempt a pass where there's too little space. When they collide with you, you always go off the track, while they don't feel a thing. Another thing that astonishes me is that they leave space in a corner if you follow close enough.

One other thing that gets me about Shift 2 is the default car setups. Did nobody at Slightly Mad Studios say: "Hey, isn't 50 PSi, excessively soft suspension, and low caster and camber a bad idea?" Apparently not. You can lower the tire pressure to 32-40, stiffen the suspension, and increase the caster and camber to make the car handle the way it should.

Basically, Forza's good, it's just boring.

As for the F1 2010 offtopic discussion: yeah it's a definite thrill ride, but it's not yet perfect. I still love it, though.

[Kaerar]

Shift 2 is not without its flaws. I'd like to revise my previous statement about Shift 2's AI: they suck. They exist only to firetruck your day up. They never check their mirrors, and always attempt a pass where there's too little space. When they collide with you, you always go off the track, while they don't feel a thing. Another thing that astonishes me is that they leave space in a corner if you follow close enough.

Actually I'd have to disagree there. If you are getting smacked up the backside or shunted then 9/10 times it'll be you fault as a driver trying to push situations incorrectly. Smacking you up the bumbum happens a bit in Modern A but rarely and mostly on that annoying Miami short track on the final corner. GT3 and GT1 suffer a little from it too, but then it's normally because you are braking too early. Initially I had the same impression with regards to the braking but then I changed setup and things got a whole lot better.

One other thing that gets me about Shift 2 is the default car setups. Did nobody at Slightly Mad Studios say: "Hey, isn't 50 PSi, excessively soft suspension, and low caster and camber a bad idea?" Apparently not. You can lower the tire pressure to 32-40, stiffen the suspension, and increase the caster and camber to make the car handle the way it should.

It's a known flaw. One of the directions SMS were forced to go was to have ALL cars setup for Ebisu. No matter if they'd NEVER race that track. Which means all the GT3 and GT1 cars are also setup for Ebisu.

As a secondary note the numbers for tire pressure are arbitrary and NOT in any specific measurement. They are the degrees of change from the lowest tire pressure that car is allowed to the highest. However they don't state the actual pressures and just give a limited arbitrary number setup instead. This has been complained about a lot by those who know and most don't realise this. This is also the case with a few of the other values in tuning and the fact that spring stiffness is tied directly to ride height too...